The public's sentiment regarding the ₹79,000 crore defense procurement proposals is largely mixed, showcasing both cautious optimism and significant skepticism. While some commenters advocate for increased spending and domestic manufacturing, others express concerns about inefficiency, corruption, and the past failures of the procurement process, leading to a general demand for greater transparency and accountability in military spending.

Indian Government

Indian Military

Domestic Defense Industry

I'm really confused and can't see the video well. Can someone please explain to me what's happening 

TombLord

It really hurts me to see indians see this as a political issue. How heartless does one has to be; to be effectively complicit to the oppression 

[deleted]

May Allah help my brothers and sisters of Kashmir for they've been fighting oppression for almost 8 decades now.

And they cry when Kashmiris execute 50 of their invading soldiers. The more they repress the Muslims they more they resist until Kashmir becomes ungovernable for the invaders like Vietnam was for the French

Just so you know, OIC [has come out](https://www.dawn.com/news/1467200) the other day and condemned in the strongest terms the recent wave of Indian terrorism and brutalities in occupied Jammu &amp; Kashmir.

There is hope for the Ummah after all.

these are almost as same as palestine and no one is talking about this 

tgay8587348

I'm obviously sad, disappointed and angry of what I just saw (if this is real btw). However, I feel bad when I'm angry at someone. Therefore, instead of asking Allah SWT to punish them. I will instead pray for them, so that He may forgive them. I believe the Prophet SAW did the same thing. It makes me feel like a better muslim, and as a better person overall.

KebabIsGood

Disgraceful, muslim countries need to come together now more than anytime before, to provide a counterbalance for the increasingly aggressive India and China. 

Lets keep this sub on Islam rather than politics please

asskayir

Indian military is making great progress!

[For example new generation of soldiers is now going to be mostly parasite-free](https://www.downtoearth.org.in/news/rural-water-and-sanitation/is-india-really-open-defecation-free-here-s-what-numbers-say-77918).

But for reals, it's not possible to be an extremely poor country and have a decent military. India's been slowly becoming a middle income country, and at this point it can have money, it can have industry, and it can have literate and healthy soldiers capable of using modern equipment. Without development, there's no hope anyway.

Also relevant - [did you know India already has higher male life expectancy than Russia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy)? (68 vs 66)

&gt; I can't believe Indians really think they can use Indian Rupee to pay international arm dealer. FFS, even Russians who are under the worst sanctions ever, are not even taking Rupees as payment, why the fuck would LM or Boeing take it?



🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣



That is fucking gold.



When it comes to India's military procurement and their overall competency of their force structure I honestly can see China beating the shit out of them quickly.

bacggg

yixinli88

I think that the biggest benefit for China to keep the Himalayan conflict alive except for good old nationalism is to financially ruin India like Soviet.

China can afford to have troops running up and down on their side without much financial burden. India must spend much more too keep up and drains their funds. Politically the conflict puts pressure on bigger military spending in India which will do more damage than the actual conflict with a hundred deaths and a few sq km of frozen rock changing hands.

Puzzled-Bite-8467

*the US spent arond 10% its Federal spending？*

&amp;#x200B;

I think it should be about 17%.

adminPASSW0RD

FYI Indian now has no minesweepers because of a botched procurement plan. All China has to do to defeat the Indian navy is literally dump few thousand mines FFS. Who the frick cares about a fancy pants aircraft carriers if you can't clear mines in your back yard.

Soon they will have 6 diesel submarines because project 75i is delayed and they will have to retire the old subs in this decade.

Procurement pay in rupees is crazy. Imagine you walk into a car dealership and offer to pay in coupons that you can only use in Walmart for example.

Sakurasou7

Wtf is with the horrifically bad spelling in this shitpost.

This isn't the subreddit for shitposts. r/NonCredibleDefense is the place to go for that.

Speedster202

are you the chinese guy obsessed with India ?

otaku2297

&gt;Indian goverment is trying to save every dollar they can

yes we do, but doesn't, or rather shouldn't, this be the goal of all govts?

&gt;In 2022 alone, they will have to pay $256 billion foreign debt. 

While this is true, the sentence seems to point out that this is normal, from your own link the total debt is a bit less than USD 600 bn, and 43% of which is due this year. Multiple long term loans are to be repaid in these two years and this is not the norm.

&gt; And India has trade defdilt with all most every single country you can think of. 

While I get the point, hyperbole helps not unless you have not heard of USA, France, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc.

&gt; devaluation of rupee aginst USD. 

Or it will boost exports and help reduce BOP gap

&gt;. India's wholesale price inflation runs at 30-year high, I

While true, it does not mean much if the country we are trading with also have inflation. In [CPI we rank 108](https://theprint.in/economy/you-thought-inflations-high-in-india-data-shows-at-least-100-countries-doing-worse/1020191/) (top rank for highest inflation), noone have done one for wholesale prices and I am lazy but a rough look at [this table](https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/producer-prices-change) puts Indian at more or less middle position. 

&gt;That's why they keep cutting the price offer for the 114 jets, it was $30 billion in 2014 now it is $18 billion (source)

Source for 30 Billion deal? I can only find the [Russia India JV of 364 Jets for that figur](https://thediplomat.com/2017/05/india-russia-5th-generation-fighter-jet-deal-to-be-signed-soon/)e, this [article from August 2018](https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/20-billion-defence-project-india-kicks-off-process-to-procure-110-fighter-jets-for-iaf/articleshow/63646424.cms) estimates the prices of USD 20 billion for 110 jets. And the cost asked in RFI have been known to go up even multiple times (see INS Vikramaditya)

Sri_Man_420

Indian military spending is something of a disaster for sure, with many horror stories (Russian carrier comes to mind), failed domestic attempts (not sure Tejas is still relevant, certainly not efficient). Probably a mix of corruption and ego that got them there.

India should have kept spending low, focused on buying off the shelf, and pump the rest of the money into developing their economy for export, especially high end tech. Like China, they could then have naturally grown the ability to make their own designs, or just tailor/co-develop foreign offers with local production as they did with the Su-30 and the Brahmos.

Not to mention there is a whole niche of untapped military potential in the drone space that Turkey of all countries now leads. Even India has the know how to get into it, and they failed at even that. It shows a lack of vision (like most countries but still).

By my count China is about to become the world's sole superpower in mere months, so it's game over anyway.

sanem48

[Lol wumao. You posted the same dogshit a year ago.](https://www.reddit.com/r/LessCredibleDefence/comments/pi8mul/can_india_build_a_defence_industry_like_china_did/hbo9zjw/)

SATARIBBUNS50BUX

Why does the CCP hate India so much? I don't feel threatened by them, why should you?

AdBitter2071

&gt;Indian goverment is already spending too much money on defence, yes, too much. Indian denfence buget took 15.5 % of its goverment spending....

15.5% of Union Budget, [Federal Budgets are 1.5x that](https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/rbi-state-budget-explained-gdp-economy-6056708/). A better metric would be as a % of GDP in which India is j[ust above the world average at 2.7% (world average in 2.2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures)%, USA 3.5%, Russia 4.1%, Israel 5.2%, China 1.7%, Pakistan [2.8% which got cut down to 2.2%](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/pakistan-army-says-defence-budget-for-2022-23-decreases-from-2-8-of-the-gdp-to-2-2/articleshow/92213022.cms) apparently for IMF talk, also many counties, Pak I know, don't include all expenses like Pensions in Defence Budget ) 

&gt; That's why they just pushed that half ass baked recirment scheme, 

I don't see the Problem with Agnipath, hiring [50%](https://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-by-2032-agnipath-50-percent-agniveer-in-army-1-5-lakh-recruitments-every-year-vice-chief-of-army-staff-bs-raju-2961079) of NCOs on short term contracts and retaining a forth of them on performance basis on after 4 years. The Scheme have been a success in the sense that there have been a [record number of application](https://www.dailypioneer.com/2022/page1/record-7-5l-apply-for-iaf-agnipath.htm) this year. 

&gt;that's why they are not spending on R&amp;D.

They want to spend on R&amp;D, hence Agnipath to reduce

More people in India need to know about the Chandigarh lobby

Yatha0804

I haven't verified what you've said, but in general I'd say that as citizens we should never put any institution, be it the government, army, judiciary, etc. on some untouchable pedestal on account of a misplaced sense of patriotism.

At the end of the day, any institution is as good as the people that work there, and any person has the potential of being corruptible. That being said, we shouldn't have a bias in believing that everyone is corrupt, but at the same time we must keep an open mind &amp; scrutinize every bit of information that comes to us.

Regular-Good-6835

Let's file an RTI and seek government's response to why they rejected domestic good quality products in favour of foreign expensive ones

Don't forget about the infamous Delhi Lobby, Southern Command lobby, Mumbai Lobby, and Chandigarh lobby.

Ramdulari_ka_hubby

In terms of amount of money, the Army is at #1. Judiciary is a distant 2nd and no I haven't pulled this number out of thin air. I do know at least 5-6 army officers, they themselves admit it. Btw, in all the defense deals everyone gets a cut from minister to general to as low as the major of the army.

Fun-Tangerine2140

I blog on national security. I think the reality is more nuanced than saying \`Indian-made good, imported bad' - Therefore if we buy imported, Army is the most corrupt organization in India.

There are irregularities in defense. Its in the public domain, in the form of CAG reports on for e.g. CSD or ECHS - not unsubstantiated allegations that \`no one talks about'. There are Parliamentary reports on defense procurement. Certainly our system can and should improve, but we need to take into account ground reality.

We can avoid all corruption in defense hardware procurement by following the Russian or Chinese model, where everything is made by defense PSUs. Our experience with that was terrible. We had (by and large) bad products at inflated prices. If you rely only on 1 foreign country (USSR) we can suffer when there are geopolitical shifts. We are trying to get into a model of Indian PSU + Private sector, competing (and collaborating) with different International suppliers.  
More suppliers and market forces, reduces corruption more than hoping that an organization will have a different moral character than the rest of the country.

The reality of military hardware is that supply chains are very international. Our domestically  
products products have a high imported component. The Marut project suffered because we could not design and make a good engine locally - not can we for the Tejas.  
Our imported products have offsets where there is some domestic manufacturing which gives us both capability and export revenue (that's why our biggest customer for our defense exports is the US).

I don't see a problem in getting a small number of Apache with ordering a much larger number of Prachand. They have different roles. The Apache, being heavier is not meant for high altitude.  
It' had not \`crashed multiple times', it has been tested to see to what extent it can be used in high altitude. We'd rather know now than when a war starts.

Dean_46

yeah I lived my whole life in army camps it's is definitely corrupt to the bone

Broad-Cold-4729

Arjun tank - sand in engine/driving in reverse for 10 km?

Pilatus import - this was widely reported

IAC - aircraft lift sized to fit only one Russian aircraft

Kaveri engine - to this day still no test bed. Have to take it to Russia to test.

MMRCA/MRFA/Rafale - will do everything instead of investing locally. Will do only piecemeal orders and then complain about cost.

This list is endless.

spannerhorse

I’ve stopped following defence affairs and it has done wonders to my BP.

classicdecoy

Yup it is as corrupt as the bureaucracy and the government, and as inefficient as any Sarkar office. Bharat Karnad and Anit Mukherjee have elaborated on it, and the army people are as careerist as an average IAS

hermannbroch

 hey man just wanted to know to do the indian army really sexually assault the women of north Eastern villages

SensitiveCress9614

I heard defence and judicial are one of the most corrupt because of lack of accountability. Talking against them also takes effort and are not easily punishable. I don't know if you're referring to the same thing.

p_ke

Corruption is everywhere and in every country, the problem is not that people are corrupt, problem is there isn’t strict laws and punishments for corruption. The most punishment is getting suspended and transferred to different locations.  Unfortunately most laws were inherited from British era as it is in constitution as it was not possible to change every law after independence. This wasn’t done intentionally but it was just not possible to change what was running for 200 years. 

However Britishers did draft laws to destroy India, they had their own evil motive to draft such laws.

I have done business in various countries, even in china corruption is far less just due to strict laws and punishments.

akash_kava

Just read the "opinion" of that manmohan guy yesterday in the news article it was completely planted article by Chandigarh lobby.
Also top army brass is same. Highly corrupt and inefficient infiriority complex ridden.
Thinking everything imported maaal is great and every indian things is bad.
Just look at apache they didn't even do high altitude trial and crashed, and LCH trials are goig on for years and haven't been ordered yet.
The same case was with LCA.
Although parrikar saved it by showing off the airforce throat.

This readymade import good mentality wont go in distant future.
They argue that atmanirbharta should not be at the expense of national security.
We have been importing fighters for almost century and haven't been able to build force that can safeguard our national security yet.
Expensive 36 Rafael for $15 billion will never be able to safeguard our national security.
Only homegrown systems in mass numbers can.

Fascist-Reddit69

Have never checked anything abt this. I think it would be great to create a long, well researched post on the corruption with at least some citations. so that it is a comprehensive list of the corrupt goingons in the upper echelons.

evammist

While I agree with most things you said, I disagree on the buying Apache part.


Apache is designed for a different altitude warfare and is as lethal as any chopper could ever be.


It isn't designed for Himalayan altitudes.


While buying Apache's is a great move especially keeping our north-western neighbour in mind... it has nothing to do with buying lch's. Two different choppers of two different classes for two different purposes and conditions. Its an apples to oranges comparison.


But yeah with everything else I mostly agree.

Murky-Hand-4723

I mean relatively… sure, but that’s like being the tallest midget, you are still short. Look at the cost overruns, delays and issues for their 2 carriers. Vikrant was nearly a decade late and it is still flying mig29ks.

khan9813

The navy has always been a bit more forward looking , owing to them being much more geopolitically conscious . That said after 2027 it's going to slow down too (aside from deliveries of existing programs ).The plan is a 175 ships by 2035 iirc maybe it's changed

CorneliusTheIdolator

The Indian navy has its hits and misses in procurement. 

The misses include pretty bad ones.. helicopters, minesweepers, submarines, more.  The hits can get pretty good - an indigenous submarine,  being able to fly an indigenous plane (prototype) off an indigenous carrier..

I don't see much point in debating comparison with other branches.

But it receives the lowest priority in funding  of the services.

Also, it has to take a long view, given that vessels last decades..

Finally, it is instructive that the navy has had it's own naval architects , design bureau.This provides a base of expertise.

https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=2146753

The navy also has tended to work iteratively

The air force and army do not have equivalent..

---

It has always been interesting to me that some commentators have pointed struggles of the US Navy in essentially herding new acquisition to the hollowing out of expertise in the US navy in design etc (which it used to have). I don't want to overblow it , but it's always an interesting topic to think of in the case of government services - retaining expertise in house vs keeping them current and up to speed as a core competency. The interplay of private and public .. [The contribution of nasa research and the  total system performance boondoggle (eg F35 vs F47 ip)  , suggest that it's not a uniquely maritime/naval topic but has some cross service/cross government applicability)

barath_s

Generally, speaking from an outsider's perspective, the Indian Navy seems to be the most savvy branch in navigating the pitfalls that plague all of the Indian Armed-Forces Procurement process for sure. We can debate as to why, but I think it's worth examining how they balance planning procurement goals while being conscious of the realities of what they may need to face. I think it's too oversimplified to say, for example, that they don't need to worry about the Pakistan Navy or the Chinese Navy being a credible threat as much in their backyard, the way the IAF needs to.

Single-Braincelled

I’d say it’s the most balanced but it still relays alot of Russian naval assets. And given the performance of the Russian Black Sea fleet, which mind you has more modern vessels, I’m a bit of a in the 50/50 camp. 

The Indian navy’s main competition believe it or not is the Chinese navy and they have been expanding very rapidly with a lot of modern and indigenous designs, minus their first two carriers and China has been expanding rapidly in the Indian Ocean as well.

PanzerKomadant

Pretty good video. Would like to see more on India next time if possible.

The Indian Defence Acquisition Council has approved procurement proposals amounting to about ₹79,000 crore to enhance military capabilities.

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